Introduction
Brian Washburn: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Train Like You Listen, a podcast about all things learning and development in bite-sized chunks. I’m Brian Washburn. I’m the Co-Founder and CEO of Endurance Learning. We’re an instructional design shop that can help you put together any kind of training program from classroom to ILT to elearning.
So enough about me. Today I’m joined by Jess Almlie, who is a Learning and Talent Development Leader and Consultant. She’s also the host of L&D Must Change podcast, and is the author of a book that is hot off the press, entitled L&D Order Take No More! Become a Strategic Business Partner.
Welcome, Jess. I’m so excited to have you.
Jess Almlie: Thanks, Brian. I’m so excited to be here.
Listen to the full episode or watch on YouTube.
Jess Almlie’s 6-Word Biography
Brian Washburn: Well, in the spirit of keeping this bite-sized, how would you describe yourself in your work using a sentence that is exactly six words, so that people can get to know you at least a little bit.
Jess Almlie: Yeah. Well, I know I sent this to you ahead of time, Brian, and now I do not have it pulled up on my screen, full disclosure right now. So, unless you have it pulled up.
Brian Washburn: Yes, so the way that Jess Almlie would describe herself in six words, in a sentence, is empowering l&d as strategic business partners, which sets the stage for, uh, for our conversation. Right. And, and for this book that you, um, that you recently, had released through ATD publishing. So the book is titled Order Taker No More.
What Does It Mean to Be an Order Taker in L&D?
Brian Washburn: Can you set the stage a little bit by explaining what it means to be an order taker in the context of l&d and why no more?
Jess Almlie: For sure. Yeah, and I think this is an excellent way to start because understanding the same definition of something is a good place for to get us all on the same page, looking in the same direction.
So when I think about order taking, it really is the way many of us work in learning & development, which is where someone comes to us with a pre-baked solution or a pre-baked idea for “training,” and I’m using air quotes in case people don’t have the video turned on. “Training.” And then we deliver that.
So we fulfill that request and that it’s that simple. And that’s the way we’ve worked for a long time. But it’s very transactional and I think we have, we as a profession, learning and talent development, we have this potential to add a lot more to the world in terms of solving talent challenges, advancing strategic initiatives, and um, all of that.
And we can’t do that when we’re stuck in this box of, you give me a pre-baked solution and I just spit it back to you. At least that’s what I found in my experience. That didn’t work because we didn’t even always solve the problems when that was the case. So order taking is simply this very transactional way of working.
Brian Washburn: A hundred percent, right? So the idea of being a partner as opposed to, um, in my case it’s a vendor. But even if you’re internal, being a partner as opposed to just this transaction, I think is a really helpful kind of mindset to approach training projects with. Now on the other hand, there might be some fear that if we push back, right, if we say no, will people not come to us in the future? So even in your own podcast, and I mentioned that you have the L&D Must Change podcast and you got put on the hot seat in your own podcast recently, o talk about this book. You talked about there’s a continuum between order taker and strategic business partner, and then there’s everything in between.
Jess Almlie: Mm-hmm.
Taking the Order in L&D Without Losing Opportunity
Brian Washburn: So I’m kind of curious, are there any situations that you’ve thought of or that you can imagine in which the good folks in l&d should just take the order?
Jess Almlie: Yeah, and you are spot on when you talk about this as a continuum, a continuum between order taking and strategic business partner, and there’s a lot of points in between there.
And sometimes we can even hit different points in the same day when we’re talking to different stakeholders. We may be working more in partnership with one person and more transactionally with another, and that there are times then yes, we do take the order and there’s a couple of different, I’ll, I’ll mention a couple of them.
So first of all, when we are trying to, in our own heads, we think I wanna work less as a transactional order taker and more as a strategic business partner. We think that in our heads, but those that we’re working with, to your point, they don’t think about that stuff. They’re not thinking, oh gosh, I wish that learning and talent development would come to me differently.
They think it’s working, and so they don’t see any need to change. So if we walk in and one day and we’re like, Hey. Now we’re business partners. We’re gonna ask you a whole bunch of questions we’ve never asked you before. It’s very likely that they’re going to be a little caught off guard and say, hold on a second.
That’s not what, how this works. We’ve just told you what we wanted for how long, and now you’re saying you wanna work differently. No, no, no. We just need you to create the training. Isn’t that what you do? I mean, then this, I’ll be honest, Brian, when I was making this transition with my own team, we experienced this a number of times where the stakeholders, we thought, you know, we, we need to dive in.
We need to find the root cause issue. We need to, but the stakeholders weren’t ready because this isn’t just a process change for learning & development. This is a cultural and mindset shift for everyone in the organization about how to work with learning & development. The good news is we start then exactly where we are in that moment.
So if that stakeholder is expecting that we’re gonna take the order without issue, because we always have done that, then guess what? We take that order. But what we do is we do something slightly different within that order so that we crack the door a little bit to say we can do things just a little bit differently.
We can add just a little bit more value. And so that’s one instance where we take it and maybe some of the value we add is something that they’re not expecting. We ask a few more questions, we tie it to a business outcome, and they haven’t asked us to do that. So we do something just a little bit differently and that way we begin to creep our way down that continuum a little at a time. We don’t jump there overnight.
There are also other times like compliance and regulatory needs. Sometimes we need to do, I mean, that’s just, there are powers above us that are saying we have to create this training and we aren’t gonna be able to buck that system at this point in time.
So there are some times we say yes strategically because we know if we work with this person, we’ll be able to build a relationship. We’ll be able to build trust, we’ll be able to increase visibility. So there are ways to do that. The secret is that every time we take an order, we try to crack the door to show we can do just a little bit more.
The Power of Relationships in L&D
Brian Washburn: So you’re talking about kind of an incremental approach, right? So change doesn’t happen overnight, um, and it can be pretty jarring. One of the things that I’ve learned in my 20 plus years in, in the field is that, like relationships matter. And this was something that, it has taken me a long time to really embrace what this actually means. Right? I, so obviously the, the word, yeah, that makes sense, right? Relationships matter.
Jess Almlie: Mm-hmm.
Brian Washburn: And I remember as a Peace Corps volunteer, uh, I remember being told, you know, it’s really important to get to know the people in your community before you start to try to implement some projects and make some change.
And I was like, what? We’re only here for two years. What? How much time am I supposed to take to build these relationships? Why don’t people listen to me? I have the answers. And it didn’t work well, right? It didn’t end well. And so I, I’ve definitely over the years come to evolve and embrace this idea, truly that relationship building matters.
I’m kind of curious. And kind of going back to what you were just talking about, incremental changes, right? So maybe we, we, we don’t say, no, we can’t do this unless you, you answer these questions to me the first time. What is the role of relationship building in the process of becoming an order taker no more?
Yeah, I mean, relationship building is absolutely critical to working as a strategic business partner because the better our relationship with somebody, the more trust they’re gonna have, the more they’re gonna say, alright, maybe I do trust you to do this work just a little bit differently. I’m willing to try it with you.
Jess Almlie: You know, to your exact point, you, once you get to know people a little bit, in the Peace Corps or wherever, then they’re more willing to work with you in, in other ways. So. And it is critical to build the trust before you need it to build those relationships before you need it, if possible. It doesn’t always work because sometimes you get thrown a, this is a brand new leader and you have to work with them right now today, but if you can to build that beforehand. I’m a big fan of doing some type of a learning tour, is what I call it.
Why Does Understanding the Business Matter as Much as Relationships?
Jess Almlie: You can do it when you’re new in an organization, it’s easy, but you can do it anytime and say, Hey, I wanna learn more about your business. The key is that when I think about relationship building, I actually think that it has two sides, and this is maybe one of the things that we miss in learning & development often.
There’s, yes, the relationship building piece where you and I are gonna get to know each other, but there’s also a piece where it is very important that I learn about your business and what it is that you are trying most to, um, accomplish in that business. What goals you are trying, working towards, what challenges you have, because ultimately I need to understand where you’re coming from in order to partner with you to come up with the best solutions.
I don’t just need to build a relationship to be your friend. I need to build a relationship and understand your business. And that is the magic formula when you can do both of those things together. And you can actually, Brian, build a relationship while learning about that person’s business. Because it’s fun for someone else, for you to sit down and meet with them and ask them questions about the business, and then they all of a sudden realize you’re, you’re maybe interested in them and the work that they do.
People love it when you’re interested in them. So building relationship. Very critical to this whole process, but don’t, um, don’t ignore that business piece of it.
Brian Washburn: Yeah. And I think that that is such a great point, right? So a lot of times people are like, oh, relationship building, oh, I have to be all touchy feely, and that’s not what we’re asking for, right?
Jess Almlie: Mm-hmm.
Brian Washburn: We’re not necessarily asking to be friends. I don’t need to be friends with everybody, though. Being friendly with people is a good idea. The idea with relationship building is getting to know really the, kind of the bottom line is what, how does, how does your part of the business work and how does it connect into other things?
And there’s a balance there, right? Because it can’t be superficial. You can’t be like, oh, let’s get to know you so I can get to know your business. There’s, there’s, there’s definitely a balance to be struck there. But I love, I love how you framed that or phrased that.
What Mindset Changes Can Make You a Better L&D Partner
Brian Washburn: And so for people who are listening to this and thinking, yeah, this makes so much sense. I wanna pick up this book. I wanna learn more and try and, and try some of these things, but I’m not sure where to start. Do you have any suggestions on what is something specific that people could do like today in order to get started?
Jess Almlie: Yeah, there’s something that is really easy, and what’s interesting is I did some research for this book.
I interviewed dozens and dozens of learning leaders across different industries and sizes of companies, and I was trying to find out, hey, you know, was I the only one who was able to make the switch with my team? Have other people did this? If they did, what did they do differently? If they didn’t, what’s holding them back?
Well, there was one theme that arose throughout all of these interviews that those who are able to work more often as a strategic business partner showed up with a different mindset than some of those who showed up as an order taker. So this is the mindset switch that you can make right now today and just start approaching your conversations with this in your brain, instead it, you don’t even have to announce it to anyone.
And the mindset shift is this. No longer do we show up as helpers. We are no longer helpers. Now, it’s great to help. We wanna help people, right? Instead though, we show up as partners. So the mindset of helper, when I think, “oh, I’m here to help you,” right away, that puts me in this support role. That puts me in this my goal is to please you with whatever you need versus when we show up as a partner. Within our brains, we’re thinking, I’m a partner to you in problem solving. It puts us almost on an equal playing field, and the hierarchy of the organization doesn’t even matter. The purpose matters. Which the purpose is I am here to partner with you to problem solve whatever it is and the reason why you came to me in the first place.
So if we just think about it and show up to your next meeting today, thinking about yourself as a partner as opposed to a helper. Think about what would a partner do differently? What questions do you ask differently? How do you listen to the responses differently?
And how do people respond to you differently? It’s amazing what can happen, even just with that little mindset shift. So that’s one thing you can start doing right away today. No resources needed other than just a little switch in your own brain.
Brian Washburn: I love it. And it’s simple, right? It’s, it’s not, I don’t have to go out there and start declining all sorts of things right away.
How Can L&D Leaders Apply These Lessons and Keep Growing?
Brian Washburn: I don’t have to do all this and that. It’s, you know, kind of let’s change the word that we use to describe ourselves and, you know, there’s a great book that I really like called “How the Way We Talk Can Change the Way We Work.” And you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re mention it right there.
So, um, so we have L&D Order Taker No More. Let me kind of start to wrap this up with maybe a, um, fun question. But, uh, if you had to write a sequel to this book, what would be the title?
Jess Almlie: Yeah, well there’s, so there’s a little bit of this in the book, um, when I talk about why we’re here or how we got to this place where we are just perpetually seen as order takers.
And I don’t know if this could be a full book, but it would be fun to play it out and I also it, it sounds a little negative when I say it, but basically the book would be something about “Stop complaining. It’s not about you.” Um, because I hear often from learning & development folks, they’re frustrated.
We don’t have a seat at the table or stakeholders in C-Suite just doesn’t see the value of what we do. But in my mind, and what I discovered in my own work was it’s not about us. We gotta turn the mirror around, stop complaining and start looking at what are you doing in our own work, learning & development.
What are we doing to cause to basically be the source of our own suffering? I think we are masters in what I call the art of unintentional self-sabotage. So whenever we take an order, we’re just reinforcing that that’s what we do. We have never given anybody any thought to believe that we could think or act more strategically.
So why would they think that we should do so? Why are they going to invite us to the table if they don’t think that we can contribute in a way that is in alignment with everyone else that sits there? And so I think it’s, it’s that the book would be more diving into kind of that — the complaints that we and l&d have and then how we address them.
Brian Washburn: As you start to workshop that book, I think that that’s a great workshop title for a conference, uh, presentation. So looking forward to “stop complaining and start thinking a little bit more about how we’re working.” So, uh, as we start to wrap up here, how do people, if people wanted to know a little bit more about you, your work, um, how can people find you?
Do you have any shameless plugs for us?
Connecting with Jess Almlie
Jess Almlie: Sure. Yep, sure do. Well, you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m very active there. My website is jessalmlie.com. That’s just my word, my name-dot-com. I’m the only Jess Almlie out there that I know of, and so we’re pretty easy to find that way. The book, of course, wherever books are sold, the podcast L&D Must Change
You can tap in and listen there. What I’m doing there is I’m just interviewing just all these brilliant minds who are calling for change in our profession in some way. And a lot of times it’s just a very small shift. But let’s talk about that because I do believe the only way we’re gonna change this profession we love for the better is if we’re all working on it together in our own little ways, in our own corners of the world.
And then finally, I do have something I can offer anybody as part of the launch of the book. If you go to jessalmlie.com/assessment, there’s an assessment you can take that’s a fillable PDF. You don’t have to even put your email in. You can just download it for now and it’ll tell you maybe where are some areas that you should focus on more than others, if you are working to become a strategic business partner in your organization.
And it ties to certain chapters in the book if you’re interested in tying it together that way as well. So, lots of different ways to find me, Brian.
Brian Washburn: And you don’t have to sign up for anything. You will, you will. Mm-hmm. You can just kind of do it right away. Yep. Which makes it really super easy.
Jess, thank you so much for joining us today and thank you everyone else for listening or watching. If you found this helpful, please go ahead and share it on LinkedIn. And if you ever wanna nerd out about anything that is training related, let’s grab virtual coffee. Until next time, everyone, happy training.
